Hi All,
Couldn’t agree more with “No system is perfect, no standard is perfect. You
will always find higher expectations from certain buyers.”
Yes different retailers (in UK and Aust) defiantly prefer and list certain
cert bodies above others. Some list those cert bodies on their websites. I
have been witnessed as an auditor by supermarkets in both countries. In one
case for the cert body I was working for to be listed in and another case
for me as an individual auditor to be listed on top of the cert body I
worked for. As I said for a cert body and an auditor to audit against any
particular standard there are a lot of hoops to jump thru, procedures to be
written, qualifications to get (ie training courses to attend and exams to
pass), audits to be witnessed and money to be paid.
I might personally think one standard has better components to it but it
doesn’t mean that my clients want or need that standard. Market requirements
dictate which standard they will choose to implement and be certified
against. In the past I have audited to some systems that I think are
complete jokes but they were appropriate for the market sector and were an
improvement on doing nothing which was the alternative.
I have never audited against ISO 22 000 because no one asked me to. Some of
my former Australian clients may be implementing it now though. And it would
be a great standard to implement particularly if you are working in a
country where the Government does not have/allocate the resources to
implement a regulatory system of the caliber that Francisco works under in
New Zealand. It will certainly help your business to get to the stage where
you can start to think about individual customer requirements.
It’s all about market access. A standard that gives access to one market
won’t be recognized in another. A New York restaurant will not care about
BRC and a French retailer will not care about WQA or SQF. An Australian
retailer will say about ISO 22 000- “that’s nice but you need….”
And Remy, women are auditors too…..
Should any one be attending the World Seafood Congress in Dublin
(http://www.worldseafoodcongress07.com/) in the last week of Sept and want
to attend a 4 day external auditors course for the BRC standard the next
week (Oct 1-4) in Dublin, our company is running this course. Please email
me directly for further information or check out our website
http://www.brc-ireland.com/
Thanks
Clare Winkel
_____
From: owner-seafood@ucdavis.edu [mailto:owner-seafood@ucdavis.edu] On Behalf
Of Remi Michalowski
Sent: 15 August 2007 07:52
To: cansalmon@aol.com
Cc: seafood@ucdavis.edu
Subject: Re: Auditing Quality Systems
Agree the BRC and the IFS are rather similar even if the evaluation scales
are different. I was talking on certain "degrees" of expectations.
Abt the ISO, I never stated that the retailers will better accept the ISO. I
said that there are issues from the retailers' point of view, such as on the
requirements: Means Vs. Results. Means are always preferred by retailers. If
I am not wrong, ISO is still reviewed by GFSI, isn't it?
At last, abt the CBs, I insist: UK retailers do not trust all the CBs. After
all, a CB is not a non-profit organization, they have a business to run.
They follow what customers expect. Furthermore, auditors are only men and
they have different ways to interpret the standards and even to appreciate a
non-conformity.
As a result, some CBs are more trusted than others and if you are not
certified by one of the "approved" CBs, they can request you to be
recertified by another CB, part of their "positive list".
However, if you look at the trends, more and more, the retailers have their
own expectations (M&S does not even look at the BRC).
We cannot expect for the "best" or the most demanding standard. Nobody can
be satisfied 100% by a standard. Look at the ISO, GFSI was a bit
disappointed by the results. Some WG members were expecting more from the
ISO such as a clear Decision Tree.
No system is perfect, no standard is perfect. You will always find higher
expectations from certain buyers. But, to summarize, ISO is very interesting
for developing countries, and for the others too, as it offers a systematic
approach to analyze your process and fulfill legal requirements. Then, you
can move on with the BRC or the IFS, and, maybe, you can satisfy M&S one
day.
Rgds,
Dipl. Ing. Rémi Michalowski
Senior Manager QA Food Processing
PT. Centralpertiwi Bahari - Lampung, Indonesia
HP + 62 815 4040 484
Yahoo Messenger ID: <mailto:michalowski_rmi@yahoo.fr>
michalowski_rmi@yahoo.fr
Skype ID: remi_michalowski
CPB - Integrated Shrimp Farming. "From Pond to Plate"
A CPP Company. Part of Charoen Pokphand Group
On Aug 15, 2007, at 12:59 PM, cansalmon@aol.com wrote:
Dear Mr. Michalowski,
I was interested to read your comments concerning the relative merits of the
BRC, ISO 22000 and the IFS. I find it hard to believe that British
retailers trust ISO over the BRC. Remember BRC stands for British Retail
Consortium and the standard has been developed and updated by British
Retailers. In fact I am aware of several British Retailers who approve
plants having only a BRC certificate, but do not accept only an ISO
certification.
Likewise I am puzzled by your comment that the IFS is better than the BRC
because it has requirements for traceability, GMO and allergens. I don't
know who has provided information that the BRC standard does not address
those requirements. Traceability is one of the 10 Fundamental Clause
requirements of the standard (Section 2.13) as are Allergens and GMO
products (Section 4.2). Failure to have systems to meet any of those
requirements results in no certificate being issued.
Finally, I don't understand the notation concerning Certification Bodies.
Any third party standard scheme requires an auditing body to determine
compliance. ISO 22000 is no exception and many of the CBs conducting audits
for ISO 22000 also audit for BRC or IFS certifications as well.
It is fine to debate the relative merits of participating in Quality System
audit programs and what benefit one receives from them, but be careful of
statements that misrepresent the various standards.
Sincerely,
John Clemence
President
Clemence Technical Services
-----Original Message-----
From: Remi Michalowski <remi.michalowski@cpp.co.id>
To: Chingling Tanco <crt@mida-group.com>
Cc: seafood@ucdavis.edu
Sent: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 4:16 pm
Subject: Re: Auditing Quality Systems
ISO 22000 is a management system, international standard to support your
FSMS. It pushes companies to provide results e.g. the main issue for
retailers is that the company can select and implement the control measures
they want, once they manage the risks identified and that the system meets
the targets established.
Private standards such BRC and IFS, all is means e.g. investments. BUT, more
and more nowadays, this "prerequisite" to be able to sold to retailers
becomes less "trusted" by the retailers: they have a list of "approved" CB
and some have their own requirements much more demanding !!
In conclusion, ISO 22000 very good for developing countries and to meet
legal requirements but demanding on results and also on money (audit,
competence). BRC very demanding on means and facilities but less trusted by
the UK retailers.
Please note that IFS is a bit "better" than BRC as it integrates legal
requirements such as traceability, GMO and allergens. but the standard is
still a private one and only valuable if you process retailers' branded
products.
Rgds,
Dipl. Ing. Rémi Michalowski
Senior Manager QA Food Processing
PT. Centralpertiwi Bahari - Lampung, Indonesia
HP + 62 815 4040 484
Yahoo Messenger ID: <mailto:michalowski_rmi@yahoo.fr>
michalowski_rmi@yahoo.fr
Skype ID: remi_michalowski
CPB - Integrated Shrimp Farming. "From Pond to Plate"
A CPP Company. Part of Charoen Pokphand Group
On Aug 11, 2007, at 10:30 PM, Chingling Tanco wrote:
I agree it's getting crazy - in Europe for example - the UK wants the BRC
(British Retail Consortium) standard while France and Germany want the IFS
International Food Standard system and they are almost the same but called
different names. Suggestion for those plants going for BRC certification -
ask for IFS certification to be done at the same time as this shouldn't cost
you much more.
Chingling Tanco
Mida Trade
Manila, Philippines
From: Vanessa Broadnax <vanessa@baldorfood.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 20:12:01 -0400
To: <criticalcontrolpoints@yahoo.com>, <seafood@ucdavis.edu>
Conversation: Auditing Quality Systems
Subject: Re: Auditing Quality Systems
Sometimes more is good. We need to keep food safety in the forefront. We can
not afford not to look at different points of view. Different views keeps us
on our toes. We must manage our time and efforts wisely.
----- Original Message -----
From: owner-seafood@ucdavis.edu <owner-seafood@ucdavis.edu>
To: seafood@ucdavis.edu <seafood@ucdavis.edu>
Sent: Thu Aug 09 19:57:07 2007
Subject: Auditing Quality Systems
I seem to spend a lot of time being accredited to one quality system or
another and then meeting with Processors who complain that there are so many
systems that they have to become documenters for each system with differing
needs.
Any comments on relative merits of the differing systems ?
(without especially trashing systems by name)
My two cents, for what it is worth, is that ISO 22000 will probably replace
everything else eventually. ( it has HACCP components so is on-topic)
Other views anyone?
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