Hi Peter,
Local Competent authority strictly forbids the use of ice slurry as, from their point of view, it is not allowed by EU FVO.
During their previous visits, it seems the EU inspectors insisted that no shrimp shall be washed or cooled at a melting ice temperature. So no ice slurry allowed for our CA inspectors.
The question is what is the ground (technical or legal) for such requirement as, if I am not wrong, the main biohazards to deal with, for shrimps, are the toxin-producing bacteria (V. para in particular) and, additionally, Salmonella and other faecal bacteria. So, in theory, you can work in temperatures below +7oC without being in troubles with growth.
I can understand that it could be a risk as you have stagnant water but as you validated your PRP "water refreshing", and as you verify regularly your system performances, there is no reason to forbid the use of ice slurry, don't you think?
Or maybe I missed something in the Hygiene Package?
It is stated in Regulation EC No 853/2004 that temperature of the fishery products shall approach temperature of the melting ice, but for cooling after cooking, and that storage and transport to the plant be made in temperatures below the temperature of the melting ice.
Thks for your attention and kind comments.
Best regards,
Dipl. Ing. Rémi Michalowski
Senior Manager QA Food Processing
PT. Centralpertiwi Bahari - Lampung, Indonesia
HP + 62 815 4040 484
Yahoo Messenger ID: michalowski_rmi@yahoo.fr<mailto:michalowski_rmi@yahoo.fr>
Skype ID: remi_michalowski
CPB - Integrated Shrimp Farming. "From Pond to Plate"
A CPP Company. Part of Charoen Pokphand Group
On Jun 22, 2007, at 3:13 PM, P Howgate wrote:
Dear Remi
I am sorry but I do not understand your message. You will have to give me
more information before I can comment.
Peter Howgate
----- Original Message -----
From: "Remi Michalowski" <remi.michalowski@cpp.co.id<mailto:remi.michalowski@cpp.co.id>>
To: "P Howgate" <phowgate@clara.co.uk<mailto:phowgate@clara.co.uk>>
Cc: "Chingling Tanco" <crt@mida-group.com<mailto:crt@mida-group.com>>; <seafood@ucdavis.edu<mailto:seafood@ucdavis.edu>>
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 2:28 AM
Subject: Re: Chilled Storage of Fresh Fish (tuna)
Peter, Chincling,
Do you have any comment about CA that systematically find non-conformity
when ice slurry is used at the plant?
"No melting ice, no melting ice". Meaning no ice slurry in my mind. They say
it is FVO that does not tolerate such practice.
However, based on my knowledge, we maintain temperature below +7oC, so in
the "safe zone". Furthermore, EU does not really state on that point in the
hygiene package.
Thks for your comments
Rgds,
Dipl. Ing. Rémi Michalowski
Senior Manager QA Food Processing
PT. Centralpertiwi Bahari - Lampung, Indonesia
HP + 62 815 4040 484
Yahoo Messenger ID:
michalowski_rmi@yahoo.fr<mailto:michalowski_rmi@yahoo.fr><mailto:michalowski_rmi@yahoo.fr>
Skype ID: remi_michalowski
CPB - Integrated Shrimp Farming. "From Pond to Plate"
A CPP Company. Part of Charoen Pokphand Group
On Jun 21, 2007, at 10:40 PM, P Howgate wrote:
Chingling
As Professor Labuza points out shrimp will cool within a few minutes in ice
slurry. The time will be a little longer when stowed in flake ice, but the
difference will not be of any technological significance. The question then
is the balance of advantages/disadvantages between the two processes. There
is no doubt in my mind that stowing in flake ice is to be preferred. I
described in my previous message the disadvantages of bulk and weight and of
the need to use more ice when using ice slurry and the possibility of
layering of water and ice, but I must emphasis in the case of shrimp the
penalty of leaching out flavourous compounds in the case of small products
such as shrimp. I have carried out experiments on the leaching of amino
acids, some of which are flavouring compounds themselves or flavour
potentiators, but can be considered as representative of other flavouring
chemicals such as nucleotides, and monitored the losses during processing.
The loss of flavour is more pronounced in the case of headless and is severe
in the case of peeled. In some cooked/peeled plants I looked at by the time
the cooked shrimps were held in ice slurry, cooled in ice slurry after
cooking, washed, and left standing in ice slurry between processing steps
there was hardly any amino acids and other flavouring chemical remaining and
the products were tasteless.
I would recommend that shrimp be iced in flake ice rather than crushed ice
as the large lumps in the latter can bruise the shells, which promotes
formation of black spot, and they should be iced in shallow boxes to avoid
compression damage, which again promotes formation of black spot. Cooling
and stowage in ice slurry prevents this damage, but I consider that this
benefit does not compensate for the disadvantages of this technique.
Peter Howgate
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chingling Tanco" <crt@mida-group.com<mailto:crt@mida-group.com><mailto:crt@mida-group.com>>
To: "P Howgate" <phowgate@clara.co.uk<mailto:phowgate@clara.co.uk><mailto:phowgate@clara.co.uk>>; "Dinesh
Dhammika uduwana"
<dduduwana@hotmail.com<mailto:dduduwana@hotmail.com><mailto:dduduwana@hotmail.com>>;
<seafood@ucdavis.edu<mailto:seafood@ucdavis.edu><mailto:seafood@ucdavis.edu>>
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 9:00 PM
Subject: Re: Chilled Storage of Fresh Fish (tuna)
Hi Peter,
What about if you were cooling shrimp - say 15-20 grams per piece HO or
10-20 grams headless. Because of the size of the shrimp, heat diffusion
within the animal will not be much of an issue so does this make ice
slurry
more effective for cooling shrimp? What about storing shrimp overnight?
Chingling Tanco
Mida Trade Manila
On 6/19/07 10:30 PM, "P Howgate"
<phowgate@clara.co.uk<mailto:phowgate@clara.co.uk><mailto:phowgate@clara.co.uk>> wrote:
Dinesh
You need to differentiate between cooling fish in ice slurry and storing
fish in ice slurry.
Ice slurry, because it is in complete contact with the surface of the
fish,
is a better heat transfer medium than is flake ice and could be the
preferred procedure for cooling large, warm fish such as tuna. However
flake
ice also makes good contact with the surface of the fish plus the melt
water
from the ice trickles over the fish making good contact with the fish.
Also
there comes a point in the cooling when surface heat transfer is not the
limiting factor for heat loss compared with heat diffusion within the
fish.
Altogether there is not likely to be a big difference in rates of cooling
between the 2 systems, but you would have to carry out comparative
experiments to determine the size of the difference in your
circumstances.
Ice slurries use more ice to cool a given mass of fish than using flake
ice
because the water in the slurry has to be cooled down as well as the fish
so
is more costly than using flake. It is important when cooling fish in ice
slurries that the mixture is stirred or the water phase recirculated.
When
the fish is added to the slurry some of the ice is melted and the
container
has layer of water and fish with the ice floating on top of it. If the
fish
has not cooled down completely this layer of fish and water will
equilibrate
at a temperature above 0degC and the ice floating on top will not cool it
down. This does not happen with fish stowed in ice; assuming there is an
adequate amount of ice all of the fish will cool down to ice temperature,
(actually a little below it, around -0.2degC, to be pedantic). Chilled
Seawater (CSW) systems - a slurry of ice with seawater- are often used on
pelagic trawlers to cool large catches of pelagic fish, but these systems
recirculate the water to ensure mixing. CSW is not the same as the
refrigerated brine storage used on larger tuna boats.
Though ice slurry is effective in rapidly cooling fish when used properly
it
is not a good medium or procedure for storing fish. Fish in ice slurry
takes
up more space, and weighs more than the same amount of fish in ice. These
are considerations for the space required to store the fish and for
transporting it. Suspension in water alters the appearance of the fish.
This
might not be a consideration for tuna destined for canning but is for
fish
going to retail sale. Depending how long the fish is stored in the ice
slurry the product can lose flavour due to leaching into the water, and
the
fish can absorb water. This might be favourable for the economics of
selling
the product, but not for eating quality.
The Codex advice, and other texts on storage of fish, that fish should
iced
in containers which allow for drainage is good advice and should be
followed. Fish in ice slurries are typically held in containers with a
drainage hole; just taking the bung out of the hole will allow for
drainage.
Peter Howgate
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dinesh Dhammika uduwana"
<dduduwana@hotmail.com<mailto:dduduwana@hotmail.com><mailto:dduduwana@hotmail.com>>
To: <seafood@ucdavis.edu<mailto:seafood@ucdavis.edu><mailto:seafood@ucdavis.edu>>
Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2007 12:07 PM
Subject: Chilled Storage of Fresh Fish (tuna)
Dear All in Seafood List,
Looking forward for the expert opinion on what is the best way of
storage
of fresh fish either only ice (flake Ice) or in a ice slurry composites
of flake ice and water.
code of hygienic practices for the fresh fish (Codex) says the water
from
melting ice should be drained to prevents bacteriological and chemical
contamination!
so if we stored in a ice slurry how can we facilitate drainage in stored
in ice slurry!
expecting expert comments soon.
thanking you
Dinesh Dhammika
Ensis Fisheries Factory
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