Hello,
Russ Armstrong wrote, "I would have been interested in the expanded results of the query that you recently posted on law-lib, but you supplied them in the form of a Microsoft Word (*.doc) attachment to your e-mail. In light of the fact that the Worm.Explore.Zip virus has made everyone, including myself, totally paranoid about opening up *any* *.doc attachment (which is how it is transmitted), you might consider re-posting that information in a regular e-mail, with a notation in the subject line of "(Long)"."
Per his request, the long replies are below.
Mariann
I have found the exact same thing, and have complained
loudly to the BNA people. I think if we stick together and
demand something more representative of the global
economy, we might get lucky.
I've thought the same thing: the prices for electronic copies are
OUTLANDISH.
We've switched some of our BNA publications where it made economic sense. We found that if the routing list was 5 or less we could get the web & email products for about the cost of the paper product. Even within BNA I found inconsistentcy in pricing some products were reasonable and some were vastly overpriced
I'm in the same position. I don't know how other firms have managed to make this changeover based on the pricing I'm getting. It looks like more greed to me.
we have just added some of the bna web/email subs and from the
library's perspective...I love them. And after a VERY little resistance (to
more email and not necessarily to the price) all of my "routees" like them
as well. Yes, with a VERY FEW exceptions, most of them are A LOT MORE
EXPENSIVE. When I talked with the BNA sales person she admitted that that is
the first thing EVERYONE has said about the product and is the stumbling
block for many firms. She basically -- but not quite -- admitted that
making more money on these is a BNA goal. I also got the old "I don't set
the price.." line. BUT, I do not want to see them go away...I plan to add
as many more as I can AFFORD!!
Amen! My brief foray into this issue left me feeling
like I was buying a used car. I found it very difficult
to get a straight answer on price. So far, we've not purchased Internet access for any of
our titles. I would love to do so as a replacement for
networked cd-roms (which have been a nightmare)
as well as for print, but the cost is prohibitive.
I definitely think Internet access will be the way of
the future, but publishers have to figure out a way to
offer it at a reasonable cost. Until they do, I plan to
sit tight!
We are experiencing the same "sticker shock". Our frequent response
has been to just say no . We have made some exceptions for various
reasons- ie. insistence of particular patrons or simply to see how the
products go over w/ the attys.. Personally, I think we all need to
make it very clear to the vendors that their pricing policies are
unacceptable.
We have been saying- "absolutely not" so often lately that the
phrase might as well be tattooed on our foreheads.
At the moment we are staying with print. One problem we are also
experiencing here is due to the safety fire walls up on our system, some of
the internet programs will not work. AutoTrack XP for one will not operate
on our system so I have to stay with their older dial up program for now.
Publishers are really hitting us this year with increases in general. If
you look at West you will see they have raised the cost of each reporter at
least $5.00 per volume. They are not alone in hefty increases. Then you
try to take advantage of the electronic age and they take advantage of us
once again by charging outrageous prices to use their electronic versions.
It also appears that small firms and boutique firms are being catered to
since their costs tend to be less than ours especially on products that base
their pricing on the number of attorneys in your firm regardless of the
group you are purchasing the product for.
You might want to take a look at the February, 1999 issue of Legal
Information Alert. Linda Will does an article on this very problem with her
usual sense of humor well in hand.
I too have noticed this. We looked into obtaining a BNA newsletter subscription through the web but found their pricing structure only worked if you have a small practice area. With a specialized firm like ours, wherein every attorney potentially would want to receive the newsletter over the Internet, the pricing became exhorbitant. I tried to negotiate but they were for the most part inflexible. I decided to retain our multiple print copies instead. Their loss. BNA just does not seem to understand the utility and marketability of their products.
Recently, however, we did choose the web version of Bender's Authority over the CD. While not as user friendly, the thought of avoiding installing a Folio application on the network was quite appealing. Our IS Dept. was tickled too when they realized they would not have to provide any support. And, the clincher, the web version was priced less than a comparable CD license.
So, it seems to depend on the publisher. Some understand, others, well ..
I've been facing the same problem. I find that the electronic access
almost doubles the print costs because of the publishers' insistance
of having access codes for individual users instead of concurrent
users or paying for "x" numbers of attorneys.
We did go over to one publisher for a few publications and the
attorneys were so excited about it that more insisted on getting it
and now every cent of savings is gone. Once they have the electronic
it's difficult to take it away and make them go back to the print.
I would love to hear what the other librarians are doing. I've been
told by some that the cost of the real estate is still more than the
electronic version. Unfortunately, real estate costs are not part of
my budget while the electronic versions of material is.
I know exactly what you mean re: negotiating contracts with vendors for
internet access in lieu of CD-ROM's or printed periodicals. The pricing
structure is often ridiculous. We are not moving to the electronic editions
when the prices are so totally out-of-line. I hope that others remain firm
and refuse to give in when publishers are being outrageous. My attorneys
have been pretty consistent in saying "no" when they hear the price of some
of these services.
I'm doing exactly the same thing right now (arguing with vendors about users
v. concurrent users, etc.) The perspective here, though, is more in terms
of recovering space taken up by books, and better searchability, rather than
timeliness. Since the attorneys here are only just beginning to get a taste
of online electronic access, that may become an issue in the future, but
isn't one for now.
I have heard of some good negotiations with Lois recently, by the way.
And Versuslaw and a new start-up called Current Legal Resources
(www.currentlegal.com) are also slowly making headway into getting real
with regard to pricing. These firms are mostly offering primary sources
though.
Mariann, get tough! Negotiate, negotiate. They want you to move to the Net
so they can cut their costs of the print or ROM, but you are right, they are
ridiculous with what they want to charge you so they can make this move.
(and savings)
Never in my experience as a Law Librarian have I had to tell a vendor who
was using the book and where the user was located. Balderdash on location
site charges! We are talking Cyberproducts.
I agree completely since I am facing the same dilemma - to bring more
technology into the library - Internet is the best way to go but the pricing
for large law firms is just not there. I have let my Matthew Bender know
this.
I recently requested a trial of BNA's US. Law Week via e-mail. We had been copying and routing the page that has the highlights from the Legal News Summary & Analysis section. Our print service currently costs us $967.79.
The electronic trial went smoothly. I received the e-mail and forwarded it to the attorneys who were on my routing list. They saw the summaries and then were able to click on the links to the stories to get to the information in US. Law Week, the full text of the decisions when available, and the BNA archive. I almost fell over when I received the pricing from BNA, however, since they wanted in excess of $4900. for our 20 users for full access to US. Law Week. They wanted over $1700. for the e-mail access alone in conjunction with a print subscription. I would have been embarasssed to even suggest to my Library Committee that we make such a switch so I went ahead and renewed the print subscription. Until the publishers reduce their pricing for electronic access, my firm is not likely to look at any product that costs in excess of 10% - 15% over the print subscription.
There is alway going to be some sort of time problem with anything that
is not primary law. Editorial enhancements take time. If your attorneys are
willing to stick with the print product I would definitely stick with the print
product. I hope others do also. It is the only leverage we as a profession
have to make the vendors change their pricing structure.
I wrote this article and it appeared in PLL perspectives earlier this
year. We have many internet subscriptions. My goal is to be able to have a
link on my intranet to any subscription, which is available to anyone at the
firm.The techniques I have used to keep the price down is 1) to ask for the
price to be based on the number of simultaneous users, not total users, 2)
to ask for the price to be based on the number of "core users" e.g. the
number of people in a practice group or on a routing list. Since I kept
cd-rpm statistics which show the number of monthly accesses I have used this
to show the publisher how much use a title gets when available to the whole
firm. This has helped me prove that reduced cost for firmwide access is
justified. Hope this helps the article is in Word Perfect.
I am finding the same thing you are and have been especially frustrated with
BNA. They are being greedy and their so called "special deals" have been
anything ,but special. I think if enough of us librarians got together and
drafted a contract that we feel is reasonable, we could negotiate some
better deals from the publishers and I am certainly willing to participate.
I can't justify a subscription that costs so much more than the print, but
the attys need desk top access since their "desk tops" are often on the
road. CD's are not an acceptable option for us. I would like to see a
subscription where we can purchase 5 or more i.d.'s at a reasonable cost and
have them be shared i.d.'s. That would be no different than having 5 print
copies, but I would hope that we could be offered a break rather than the
same cost as the print.
The best advice that I got re: electronic subscriptions is to remember that
you are the customer, be willing to walk away and tell the vendor what you
are willing to pay. Vendors want to sell you the pub more than you want to
buy it. The key is to be willing to walk away.
As a firm, we tried to negotiate a license for an electronic product for one
practice group. The publisher wanted to charge us per warm body in the firm
rather than per actual user. They wanted to include mailroom people,
reception and office services. We walked away and contracted with a third
party for the same information. We saved money. The format of the
information is not as good, but, hopefully, when we have to renogiate, they
will be serious with us.
Vendors don't have a clue how they should price these types of subscriptions
and are using stupid models.
Mariann Storck
Library Manager
Godfrey & Kahn, S.C.
780 N. Water St.
Milwaukee, WI 53202
TEL: 414-273-3500
FAX: 414-273-5198
mstorck@gklaw.com
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