Hi Ron:
Thank you for the laugh - AND the research. It would not surprise me if
this turns out to be American (mis)usage (though we're not the only ones
guilty of this, nu?).
We, journalists to academics to lawyers, are well known for taking a
seemingly clever sounding phrase, that means nothing at best, and
running with it. (Don't get me started on all the NPR Small Things
Considered guests lately who think "thank you for having me" is an
appropriate response to the host's "thank you for speaking on the
program." It's SILLY! SILLY! And, it sounds stupid. No one's had you.
The appropriate response to "thank you" is "you're welcome," and maybe
(maybe!) followed by "thank you for inviting me.")
Thank you - I'll be much better when my Crabby Flakes have fully
digested :-)
Laura
________________________________
From: Ronald Huttner [mailto:rshutt@netspace.net.au]
Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 8:27 AM
To: law-lib List; Laura Orr
Subject: Re: Difference between INTRA vires and INFRA vires ? -
Further Thoughts
Hi Laura,
I am quite certain that on this occasion I am right ! I have
just spent several hours online doing extensive research on your query -
purely for the sheer hell of it !! I can find NOTHING WHATSOEVER to
support the view that "infra vires" means anything remotely different
from "intra vires". In fact, in the umpteen tens of thousands of cases
contained in AustLII's databases I found only 2 occasions (yes - only 2)
where the expression "infra vires" was ever used !! However I found
many many thousands of instances of the phrase "intra vires". It is
exactly the same on Google. "Infra vires" does appear from time to time
- but predominantly in America, and far less in Australia and New
Zealand. But even in America it still occurs far, far less than "intra
vires". Frankly, "infra vires" is simply bad grammar and pretty
meaningless in the legal context. An act of a person or corporate
entity, or a legislative instrument, is either within power or outside
power. That is to say, either "intra vires" or "ultra vires". Have you
ever heard of an act or a legislative instrument being said, in English,
to be "underneath" or "below" power ? It would be very poor grammar in
English, so why say it in Latin ? How about this challenge for
Law-Libbers ? Can anyone come up with a single instance - in any
jurisdiction anywhere at all - where the phrase "infra vires" has
plainly been used to mean something OTHER than "intra vires" ? I am
willing to bet than no-one can !!
Cheers,
Ave Atque Vale
Ron
On 04/08/2007, at 12:45 AM, Laura Orr wrote:
Hi Ron:
You know, I think you're right or darn close to being
right. I woke up early thinking about this and further forays above,
beyond, and below the term lead me to the same conclusion. I don't have
Fowler's or the like and the only Garner we have lists ultra and intra,
but no infra, so couldn't trace it that way. And, the only place I see
infra a lot is in footnotes and in the light bulb section of hardware
store, neither of which is terribly helpful here.
It does seem to be used a bit more in the criminal law
context, so I was thinking there might be some traditional, historical,
or British connection (etymological perhaps), but again, don't have the
research resources here (other than limited online ones, which in this
instance are somewhat inferior).
I approach questions like this from non-attorneys
carefully - attorneys understand ambiguities and terminology that you
sometimes have to take on face value, given its source - and we have a
lot of context and intangible signals that tell us to trust or not trust
what we read and assume. With non-attorneys, you don't always know the
whole context, they certainly don't know how to separate the Weatabix
from the Kix, and I always admire their willingness, not to mention
bravery, to try to understand this tough world of law and legal
research. So I sometimes take it a little further, if only to give me a
chance to figure out what they know, don't know, and need to know. And
they do come up with some stumpers sometimes :-)
Thanks!
Laura
________________________________
From: Ronald Huttner
[mailto:rshutt@netspace.net.au]
Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 5:18 PM
To: law-lib List; Laura Orr
Subject: Re: Difference between INTRA vires and
INFRA vires?
Hi Laura,
I wouldn't devote a further second to this
enquiry. It would be time wasted. "Infra vires" means exactly the same
thing as "intra vires" in the legal context. It is simply a less
accurate way of expressing exactly the same concept - used solely by
those whose knowledge of Latin is definitely infra that of those who use
the correct word "intra" !
Ron Huttner LL.B (Hons)
(Retired) Barrister, Solicitor, Law Lecturer and
Legal Researcher
Melbourne
Victoria
Australia
"Cogito Ergo Sum"
On 03/08/2007, at 9:23 AM, Laura Orr wrote:
Greetings:
I have a (non-attorney) patron who wants
to know exactly what INFRA vires means. (We know about ULTRA vires and
even INTRA vires.) I can piece it together (so to speak), but not with
sufficient assurance to withstand sharp and close scrutiny and certainly
not to when it comes to explaining the difference between INTRA and
INFRA vires to a non-attorney. (Those pesky withins and belows get us
every time.)
We're a small library with only a couple
of dictionaries, Black's and one edition of Ballentine, and neither
defines INFRA vires (the one we really want to know about), though the
patron can see each word defined individually. A few Internet search
engine searches help, but something more authoritative is needed.
The context was a page in a book on
criminal procedure, but it's obviously a word used in several contexts,
usually having to do with official conduct. Sooo, if a police officer
acts INFRA vires, is s/he acting within (INTRA) or beneath his/her power
(INFRA), or are they the same thing? And if BELOW, what the devil does
that mean if it's different from ULTRA?
It is possible that in the early morning
all will become clear to me (I'm most definitely a morning person)
without assistance, but for now, I put myself (throw myself? is there a
difference? :-) at your mercy.
Many thanks!!!
Laura
Laura J. Orr
Law Librarian
Washington County Law Library
111 NE Lincoln St
Hillsboro, OR 97124
Phone: 503-846-8870
Fax: 503-846-3515
Email: laura_orr@co.washington.or.us
<mailto:laura_orr@co.washington.or.us>
URL:
http://www.co.washington.or.us/lawlibrary
<http://www.co.washington.or.us/lawlibrary>
Blog: oregonlegalresearch.blogspot.com
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